Subject: Re: illustration: Slantville's Opening Page
"If you are not working for hire but are approached by someone who wants to hire you, what do you tell them. That you work with your own contract? And what does your contract state as far as deposits, payments, and future royalties? I'm getting myself into this very situation and want to safeguard myself as much as possible and still get the job. Let me know.
Thanks
Christine McBride"
Hi Christine,
Every job is different. So far what I've done is determine what they want to use my art for, and written it out. If you want one time rights, it's this much. If you want exclusive rights, it's this much. Using it for a certain length of time in this way costs this much, etc. I always try to get the originals back. I might want them in my portfolio. I try never to sell ALL rights. (work for hire) Look at Carol Ann's position with trophy hunting, if you sell all rights, your art could be used for anything.
There are quite a few causes that I wouldn't want my name linked to.
What alot of folks don't understand is we, as commercial artists, sell USAGE, not the actual artwork. So the more they want to use it, the more they should pay.
Carol
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Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:14:36 +0000
From: Kelly Cheek
Subject: Re: illustration: Slantville's Opening Page
"I try never to sell ALL rights. (work for hire)"
Actually, there's a difference between work for hire and selling all rights. With WFH, you don't get any credit and usually minimal pay. When you sell all rights, you still are credited as the creator of the work, and you (should) get substantial pay based on all the rights that are bought. You still don't have any say in what the work is used for AFTER the buyout, but at least you make the decision whether or not to sell all rights and you are compensated for all those rights. In most cases, though, there are ways to negotiate so that you retain some rights. Who really needs ALL rights to an image? Perhaps the client can buy exclusive rights to the image in their particular field.
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Date: 05 Mar 99 10:58:29 -0800
From: Charlie Zabarte
Subject: illustration: Work For Hire.......
Hello to all you good folks,
I need a little advice......I just got my first call via my Showcase page...A company named Victory Productions, Inc. wants me to illustrate a book of poems and decodeable books for them. They said that it would basically be a "Work for Hire" contract and I would like some feedback/advice from you guys regarding this. I'm a rookie....so please be gentle......I'd really appreciate any help.....Thanks!
Charlie A. Zabarte
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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:50:19 -0800
From: "Nancy Barnet"
Subject: RE: illustration: Work For Hire.......
Hi Charlie -- I got a call from them yesterday . . . they had a couple of spots for poems in their Spanish language readers they needed illustrated (mentioned the other books, but we didn't get that far). I was told the budget was $80 apiece for the spots, which didn't work for me. Neither did the WFH contract.
As long as illustrators (or writers, for that matter) sign WFH contracts, nothing will change in the educational publishing market. Yes, I've heard the argument from beginning illustrators that it's a foot in the door, but where does that door lead? I stuck my toe in WFH work and decided it's *not* the way I want to go. And I do believe publishers can change their contracts and still acquire the rights they need with fair compensation to the artists.
As independent contractors, freelancers, we have to make a personal decision regarding WFH assignments. I've made the decision not to turn over authorship of the art I create any longer. I may be in the minority and I'm realistic -- I know there will be dozens of illustrators willing to do the work I may turn down.
Some illustrators on this list have viewpoints similar to (or stronger than) mine, others see things differently. We should see some interesting comments on the subject!
Nancy
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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:06:06 -0800
From: "Jessica Schiffman"
Subject: Re: illustration: Work For Hire.......
The other side of this argument is that-work-for hire is better than no work at all. For me, work-for-hire filled up my portfolio, gave me valuable experience, and paid for my electronic equipment and alot of other stuff. It was WAY worth it. Somebody just entering the field can't expect to get the kind of jobs more experienced illustrators get, unless their work is incredible and they have fantastic connections.
Jessica
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Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 13:33:27 -0800
From: stephanie anne holland
Subject: Re: illustration: Work For Hire.......
Now the bad news--I think as a group consensus, we agree that "work for hires" are at best risky and at worst, could be downright devastating for the artist, in terms of time spent and emotional investment in the project. By consenting to "work for hire" you are essentially agreeing that if the client doesn't like your work, you are left in the dust.
Now, I think most of us in our hungrier days have accepted these kinds of assignments. Sometimes they work out fine, but many of us (myself included) have gotten burned.
For that reason many people on the list, as a matter of policy, simply don't accept "work for hire" assignments. My best gentle advice is to PROCEED WITH CAUTION. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself (firmly but professionally) and trust your instincts--they will rarely mislead you. Good luck, and please do keep us posted.
All the best,
Stephanie Holland
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I don't see how "work for hire" leaves you in the dust anymore than the other kind? You still get an advance before you begin, and you can still keep it if they fire you. Even if you aren't doing "work for hire" and you're getting to keep the rights to your work, they can still fire you if they want.
Nor do I think there is a group consensus that "work for hire" is bad. We had this discussion a few months ago, and alot of people thought "work for hire" was a reasonable way to start out.
Usually when you do "work for hire" you get to keep the rights to use your work to promote yourself. although it would be nicer to keep ALL the rights, most of the time illustrations are very specific and you wouldn't be able to sell them again to someone else, particularly educational book stuff, which is where alot of that kind of work is.
Jessica
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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:14:22 +0100
From: Tom Byrne
Subject: Re: illustration: Work For Hire.......
In Ireland you don't have any other option but work for hire. I have to admit it is annoying but I can sympathise with Jessica. It is a matter of being realistic as well as idealistic. Aim for idealism but don't ignore realism when you are beinging. Quality is the only real thing that makes a big difference. Then you can tell them your terms.
Tom
Against work for hire.
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Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 00:43:13 -0500
From: linda & karl
Subject: illustration: Work For Hire.......
hmmmm, is anyone seeing a pattern here? Any time one of us gets a call for a job with a less than desirable contract, like WFH, it seems that several others of us got the same call? It's like they put their feelers out over hundreds of illustrators and then choose from the ones who will accept the terms. It doesn't seem like many of us get the same call for really great paying jobs.
linda sw
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Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 22:42:46 -0800
From: stephanie anne holland
Subject: Re: illustration: Work For Hire.......
Thank you Linda. Well, I never claimed to be the be-all-end-all expert in this category, but Charlie asked for advice and I gave the best I had to offer.
Jessica--I'm so glad that you have had such a positive experience in this area ( I do wish everyone well), but please do give credit to those of us (and I'm sure they are many) that have not. I staunchly stand behind my original advice to Charlie, which was BE CAREFUL--who knows, maybe your instincts are sharper than the rest of ours...
All the best,
Stephaie Holland
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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 05:08:06 -0800
From: "Nancy Barnet"
Subject: RE: illustration: Work For Hire.......
To be fair, I have to say *many* of the publishers who currently offer WFH contracts are the big, well known educational publishers (Hampton Brown, ScottForesman, Addison Wesley Longman, etc.) and they can pay very decent amounts for flat-fee work on picture books, readers and classroom supplements. $6,000-10,000 can be hard to turn down for six weeks of work. WFH is just the way they've done business for years -- whatever their justification in the past.
Because they have HUGE numbers of books to put out, they frequently do "cattle calls" to get in lots of artist's samples. And I think the edu. publishing art buyers are the ones most frequently searching out talent on the Web right now (I've had many contacts by way of my Web site).
I feel, as do many others, that our kids deserve trade-book-quality art in the books they use in schools. Lots of kids don't have parents who routinely expose them to books at home -- school is the only place they can enjoy the magic of words and pictures. But I also feel that authorship is a terrible thing to strip from artists, which is what WFH does. I think there's plenty of room for artist-publisher compromise. And I think there are growing numbers of artists working for change.
There, I'm done
Nancy
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Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 09:08:42 -0500
From: linda & karl
Subject: illustration: work for hire
"Thank you Linda. Well, I never claimed to be the be-all-end-all expert in this category, but Charlie asked for advice and I gave the best I had to offer."
oops, I dunno if what I wrote sounded the way I meant it. Another late night posting and my brain was fried from the restaurant. I just meant that there seem to be a lot of these jobs that art directors put big calls out on, but they never seem to be the dream jobs that send you to Europe for research all expenses paid and give you $10,000 for a single painting with royalties.
I think WFH stinks but I wouldn't disrespect any artist who takes a WFH job. I've signed my share of crappy contracts. It beats waitressing.
linda sore feet
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You mean there's actually contracts that go along with this work? Oh, and you're right about it beating the waitering... But me, I'm just grateful that anyone wants to pay me $300 a page for about an hour of work... I know there are other circumstances where it's way different... but I feel I'm lucky to make a living as an artist... though, just as in waitering... there are times when one must on occasion stoop. I've got a whole drawers full of artwork to which I own all the rights... but most of it just makes me cringe when I look at it. I guess it's all a process... some day I'll be a real artist.
John N.
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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:36:16 EST
From: Ppcahill@aol.com
Subject: illustration: Re: Work For Hire......
"It doesn't seem like many of us get the same call for really great paying jobs."
That's because they're few and far between and whoever the lucky illustrator is who gets the call first grabs them up. :0)
I'd like to know how one makes the transition from doing work for hire to flatly rejecting it. I mean I really would. I'm not being sarcastic.
In the children's educational market and other markets it's standard fare. The way I see it, an illustrator has to first be in a position financially to be picky. There are very few illustrators who start out in that position, unless they have alternate sources of income or they like beans and rice and live in a van down by the river.
In an ideal world all illustrators would be communicating between themselves and be able to refuse WFH and force publishers to change their ways. Maybe when every illustrator is part of an internet illustrators group, when we're all members of GAG, when we all have so much work we can turn it away, or when we all have someone else to pay the bills. I hope this doesn't sound nasty. I'm not trying to be. I'd like to hear realistic solutions to this.
Phyllis
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Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 16:35:43 -0700
From: John Nez
Subject: Re: illustration: Re: Work For Hire......
Ppcahill@aol.com wrote:
"The way I see it, an illustrator has to first be in a position financially to be picky. There are very few illustrators who start out in that position, unless they have alternate sources of income or they like beans and rice > and live in a van down by the river."
Love the imagery! Might be an interesting working environment... but the phone & fax would present a problem. I think I'd have to wear a bandana and grow a stubbly beard... also would require guard dog for protection.
"In an ideal world all illustrators would be communicating between themselves and be able to refuse WFH and force publishers to change their ways. Maybe when every illustrator is part of an internet illustrators group, when we're all members of GAG, when we all have so much work we can turn it away, or when we all have someone else to pay the bills."
That's union talk, I do believe. But the internet thing is really interesting. I think less than 1% of illustrators are currently on the internet. How many people are on this list? About 150.... and lots of the same folks are on the iSpot.... so how many working illustrators are there? 5,000? 10,000? Someday maybe they might all get together... up to now it's the publisher's game... 'Divide & Conquer' rules the day.
John N.
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Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 21:06:49 -0500
From: "J.Hiscox"
Subject: illustration: Re: Work For Hire......
"unless they have alternate sources of income or they like beans and rice and live in a van down by the river."
Although I don't think you meant it, this does come close to the mark for me. I do like to eat more than beans, but it's really important to me to keep unnecessary consumption down as low as possible, and keep costs down. It's so easy to get caught up in the race for more stuff and the money to pay for it with, until you're just like a hamster on a wheel.
Money doesn't come pouring at me, but I do manage to live without an alternative source of income, and without doing any work I consider unethical, whether because of the price, the copyright issues or the content.
Well, I say no alternative income, but I do have paintings for sale in galleries and cafes, and this week I taught a kid's daycamp.
Then again, I do long for some luxury sometimes. But then I just try to stand back and remind myself what a luxury it is to just live and make art all the time, and stay out of the rat race.
Jennifer
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Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:33:25 EST
From: Pondfolk@aol.com
Subject: Re: illustration: Re: Work For Hire......
I have done work for 2 publishers who started their businesses on a shoe string and eventually employed around 75 people. They kept the artwork produced by their artists because they reused it or stored it to protect their products, should they need to replace negs. or plates for reprinting.
The turnover rate of staff artists was pretty high. Staff artists tend to get their experience and move on, or perhaps get promoted. For a publisher to keep tabs on all artists and track them down for permission to re-use their art would be a major pain. Would they be willing to re-do an entire series because an artist decided they shouldn't re-use their work? Remember, the making of the printed series entailed the services of not only several artists, but the editors, printers, contracted production people and publishing house overhead. If they couldn't find the artists, would they risk a lawsuit by re-using it anyway?
I am not defending work for hire policies, I'm just interjecting the realistic note of why these policies exist. Personally, I was very happy to get my first art job, and I would have thrown out most of the originals by now had they belonged to me.
On a positive note, a third publisher I worked for returned all art to the artist and they did track me down to re-use several pieces I had done for a book they were publishing. And they paid me again. That was very nice.
Kt
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Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:04:10 +0100
From: Barry Smith
Subject: Re: illustration: Re: Work For Hire......
Here in the UK, illustration for kids in particular is more and more of a "luxury" occupation. Bread and butter work can come from educational publishers - most illustrators can't afford to be picky (me included) and accept whatever work under whatever terms a publisher is willing to offer (meanwhile hoping my skills make it big in the marketplace and I can name my fee. It is good to work and use my skills (but meanwhile I'm looking for a day job - I agree with Phyllis - alternative income is the only way you can be picky about what illustration work you accept - a fact of life???.)
good wishes,
Barry
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Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 17:19:52 -0800
From: Rebecca Thornburgh
Subject: illustration: WFH: maybe not so bad...LONG
Charlie -- I know I'm probably in the minority, and I'm a little scared to say this on this list because so many people don't like WFH. I don't like it in principle, either, but I still think WFH is okay as a way to get started. I think for many publishers it's an economic and administrative reality because of the market they're in: if they had to pay royalties they couldn't publish as many titles, or maybe even at all. (Oh, please don't jump all over me, you guys... I do realize what's wrong with WFH; just wanted to point out, gently, the other side.)
Almost all of the work I do right now is WFH: educational and mass market publishers and even some trade publishers. And it's really quite okay, really. I'm working, a lot, and getting a lot of published work in my portfolio, and I'm learning SO much and getting paid for it! What I don't get with this arrangement is the copyright in my name. What I do get is decent money (really), a published work, all of my originals back, and lots and lots of good experience. And the editors and art directors (from the entire range of publishers with whom I've worked) have been very nice, very respectful of my contribution and my opinions, and always willing to have my creative input -- if I have an idea that makes the book work better, they want me to use it!
Of course I do prefer royalty-based contracts, but I'm willing, even happy, to do WFH because it means I'm working. (This doesn't mean I'll work for any cheapo publisher who treats me badly and whose product isn't worth my effort. I won't.) I have done five books on a royalty basis, though. The first three paid a peanut-sized advance, and while they are all in print (15 years later) and continue to sell well -- one of the books is in its 6th printing -- I still have to write the publisher on a regular basis to remind her to send me my royalty check! This has gotten to be tiresome. The other two books were more recent, and I was so excited to get these contracts, until my agent said, calm down, you silly newbie, the publisher doesn't even PRINT enough copies to pay back your advance. So it goes.
Anyway, as with any potential project or client, I guess you have to weigh the advantages against the disadvantages, and make your own decision. All the best of luck to you! rebecca
Forgot to mention, too -- in my WFH work, I've always gotten credited as the illustrator, on the cover and/or title page, right next to the author!
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